Comment Board: Lightning Laxus

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Avatar for MomoRuns

Personally I think Moira's secondary fire is wonky enough to not classify it with other beams, I documented findings here. Talk:Moira#Primary_and_Secondary_Fire_type

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

We have to classify it as a beam because Blizzard is classifying it as a beam. You can list the weird stuff in the ability details section. Accretion as a projectile is super weird because it ignores everything that deletes or deflects projectiles, but that doesn't mean it's not a projectile. Adaptive Shield is super weird because it doesn't grant ult charge but that doesn't mean it's not a type of health. You get what I mean?

I didn't make the template and frankly am still not a fan of it. You ask ask Scarrken what he envisioned it to be.

Avatar for MomoRuns

Well we both know how sometimes blizzard is wrong ;P But I think its another reason to change how we store ability data. The current template tries to fit everything into certain boxes but that just isn't how abilities work, maybe its worth it for some abilities to define "aims like" and "damages like" but we can't just keep adding options forever. I've seen the Dota2 wiki just defines trait1, value1, trait2, value2, etc. Trait holds the display name, value holds the number.

What ideas do you have to improve the abilities on the wiki? I posted on Template_talk:Ability_details#Redesign a few days ago asking some questions along those same lines. We definitely have the tools now to make very smart templates and nice data displays.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Since we're (well, 99% you actually) in the process of reworking everything, we could rework the proj template. I actually do have a lot of ideas that I want to include, for example, including knockback effect, beam size, projectile size, projectile gravity, interruptability, etc. and I was planning on messaging you later on it. Later because Apex Legends Season 5 got my attention right now.

Anyway, weapons and abilities should absolutely be separate. Sombra only hacks abilities and does nothing to weapons. Doomfist gains shields from ability damage and gains nothing from weapon damage.

Buffs and debuffs are hard to classify because of the complexity of ability interactions. By far the best visual aid is either a gif or a video.

Avatar for MomoRuns

I'm thinking everything in the game can fit into the following categories: Hero Weapon Ability Deployable/Object (this one is harder to define, I'm thinking of something that fits BOB, turrets, immortality field, orisa shield, but it gets muddy fast.) I'll try and draft up some attributes that define each category. I'd like to separate hero from character, partially to separate gameplay and lore and partially to display some sort of hero summary card on pages.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

It's fine to keep them together. Some deployables like Brigitte's barrier are inherently tied to the character. You can't separate them.

Avatar for MomoRuns

I know you do a lot of numbers testing for abilities, do you happen to have a formula to calculate a falloff range? I've been looking at it but its been changed so many times nothing is lining up.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Not really a "formula."

You can use the workshop to calculate the distance between two players. You can also use the workshop to create text on the HUD that displays the "event damage" whenever you do or take damage. Basically just find where the number begins to drop and where the number stops dropping.

Avatar for MomoRuns

Yeah I did that, I was hoping to find some formula(max damage, falloff start distance, falloff end distance, test distance) that would return the damage done at that distance. I guess I could do it if I passed in both max/min damage and start/end distance.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Damage falloff is linear, except on McCree. I'm not sure if there are other exceptions though.

Base damage - ((Distance - Min. falloff distance) / (Max. falloff distance - Min. falloff distance) * Max. damage falloff percentage * base damage)

The distance must be between the min. falloff distance and the max. falloff distance.

Examples:

Ashe's The Viper (ADS): 85 - (Distance - 30) / (50 - 30) * 50% * 85

Tracer's Pulse Pistols: 6 - (Distance - 13) / (23 - 13) * 70% * 6

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Wow. Your source is a video? C'mon. You know better.

In the video itself, you see the charging Rein catch up to the barrier. That video in particular has multiple incorrect statements, such as KarQ saying Fortify lasts 5 seconds despite the HUD showing 4 seconds and KarQ saying Rally increases movement speed of D.Va's bomb despite Rally's description saying it only increases Brigitte's speed.

Go test it yourself. Do it for anything you add here. It's not even that difficult: Set Sigma's move speed to 300% and create a dummy Lucio bot on your team.

YouTubers spread misinformation all the time. KarQ is no exception. I know, because I'm the one who's been testing and correcting all the shit on the wiki.

Avatar for Manon19541

Same thing "Don't just revert my changes with no reason behind it.". You remove my edit of cast time (Brigitte ultimate cast time). But this gamepedia is not fully completed because of you. We complete some missing informations but you remove. This Gamepedia lack a lot of information

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Scarrken didn't see that I already left a message on his profile when he wrote that.

If you actually looked at my edit, I didn't revert anything. Your 1 second number is wrong (it's actually 0.7 seconds) and I felt it didn't belong in "cast time" because Rally begins immediately.

Avatar for Scarrken

that's because blizzard calculates it downwards, so 30% less recovery means 30% faster fire rate to them. it applies to pretty much everything

Avatar for Scarrken

Don't just revert my changes with no reason behind it.

Avatar for Vvves

Hi I'm messaging you about the bastion falloff edit you reverted. What's your source for the falloff values? I tested them in a custom workshop game and I concluded the bastion falloff was 30m to 55m

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

I want to find PTR Tracer's falloff range but it seems I can't use your code on the PTR.

Avatar for Vvves

I see. I'm gonna install PTR and see what's going on

Avatar for Vvves

Here you go 8WDRE. Just had to copy paste the code into ptr. Here's what I got for tracer falloff on ptr (https://i.imgur.com/Bf1TNfd.png) :P

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Skirmish Busan? OK tip: Disable all maps except an Escort map and disable all of the genuine pig's abilities. That way you'll have a perfect test dummy. Also I recommend Zenyatta or Zarya bots so they heal automatically.

How did you test with Ana constantly moving around?

Avatar for Vvves

Lol, she's not supposed to do that. She's a dummy and shouldn't move unless trough commands. Yeah, I disabled all other maps, with the settings. If it's just picking a random map, I'm surprised you figured out it was busan :P

Avatar for Trxt3r

I don't think there is a way to send you a personal message so I'll have to do it here:

The information you posted about Doomfist is just completely wrong, and you don't even address the facts that I brought to the page. Here are some things wrong with your latest revision

1) You shouldn't be using PTR to do testing and reporting about LIVE. The Overwatch wiki page reports on LIVE Doomfist, not PTR Doomfist (they are not always the same), so you need to collect the data from LIVE. Keep things Apples to Apples.

2) You said, "Bars don't actually exist as they're purely cosmetic..." I agree with this statement, the bar is just for gamer feedback, and the calculations about damage and remaining health are not taken from the "bar". BUT you can use the bar to backtrack and determine the data, in fact, that's how almost ALL of wiki edits get their data since gaming companies rarely put out the data (there is a reason why the YouTube channel "The Game Theorists" is so popular). I recorded my process in 1440p, while my GPU, Game, and Display ran at 60fps, I counted each pixel on my screen, used frame by frame video editing, used basic math, just to be as accurate as possible. I then posted my data collection process to YouTube so you can verify yourself if I made a mistake. But you didn't look at the video, nor did you provide any evidence for your statements. I provided clear and concrete evidence to prove my statements. This is a no brainer, and it confuses me as to why you are so adamate about your position when you have not provided any logical basis for it. Please stop revising my edits with ostentatious comments, if you do edit my edits please provide proof, or at least address my evidence.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

I like how you said I am "completely wrong."

Literally the only difference between live and PTR Rocket Punch is the charge rate. On live, it is extremely difficult to get less than 1 bar of charge without instant clicking because it charges way too fast. On PTR, it's a bit easier, which is how I discovered that "almost 1 bar" does slightly more than 100 damage, which is more than the 98 damage that instant clicks do. Therefore, instant clicks are not exactly equal to 1 bar of damage (but it's very close).

Frankly, I'm not sure what you're trying to say for your second point. You agreed with me that bars don't actually exist and that damage calculation is not per "bar." The scaling should be linear, and is already implied. If you found it to be non-linear, that would be noteworthy but it didn't seem like it. (Your numbers are super linear.)

Speaking of your numbers, I was playing on the PTR yesterday and what I found from my testing is very different from the numbers you posted. Here's a workshop code if you are interested: NM40E. (Give Team 2 a single Zenyatta bot. The numbers on the top left is the difference between your health and max health; in other words the damage you took.) Two bars isn't ~67 damage like what you wrote, but ~73 damage. When I acknowledge that the gap between the 2nd and 3rd bar is the true middle, I get ~74-75 damage, which honestly makes MUCH more sense. Three bars is ~87 damage, etc.

"But it's PTR!" Again, PTR is literally live but slower and more accurate. And it's going to be live in a few days anyway. I had suspicions of your numbers from the start because I know how ridiculously difficult it is to get accurate readings with the live's super fast charge rate.

A grand list of my problems with what you wrote:

1) Incorrect information.

2) Incomplete information (you only did the punch, not the wall impact).

3) Information concludes something super obvious (linear scaling is standard).

4) More of a nitpick, the format is lazy and you abbreviated "damage" for some reason.

Avatar for Trxt3r

I would highly disagree about gathering data from PTR and ASSUMING it works the same way in LIVE. Very unprofessional and the data should be discarded unless you have a post from Blizz itself stating no changes were made or will be made to Doomfist. At any moment, Blizz can change Doomfist's data in PTR and not post about it until much later, invalidating the data you collected. But that wouldn't happen in LIVE.

Frankly, it doesn't matter that LIVE is faster than PTR, my techniques capture better data since it seems I'm using better tools anyways. Since I'm recording at 60fps, I can gather data every 16.7 milliseconds, which is much faster than human reaction time (if the data suggests, I could always switch to a 144Hz monitor to record data every 6.94 milliseconds). Since I'm also counting pixels, and not just visually estimating from far away, my approximations are more accurate due to the sensitivity of my measuring tool.

More importantly, how are you collecting your data? I don't think we should even be talking about numbers or theory or conclusions until that question is answered because you keep referring to YOUR numbers in an authoritative tone. The numbers that are more authoritative are the numbers that were gathered more accurately, unless there is a direct post from Blizzard stating otherwise. So how a person gathers their data is of the utmost importance here and the starting point of any conversation regarding data. Are you recording your gameplay and playing it back frame by frame? Or are you just simply looking in real time and guessing?

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

It's literally the same thing, but 40% slower.

I gave you the code and the instructions. Test it yourself.

Avatar for Trxt3r

Please see my video regarding Doomfist's Rocket Punch: https://youtu.be/Bal4CDABwws Read the description to understand the final result.

Avatar for Guildess

I get that you didn't like the edit i've made in Barriers but you could've talked to me before reverting it altogether, Symm's ult cost could've easily been fixed instead of removed, there's no reason for removing the mention of objects, using units instead of words should just be a given in this case since it's just objectively easier to read and at this point it seems like you prefer keeping things how you like instead of letting others improve them. you have done a lot on this wiki but you still are not the owner of all reason.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

There was too much to write in the edit summaries.

1) I have no idea why you changed HP (with the link to the page) to Health (with no link).

2) It's not that Reinhardt's, Brigitte's, and Sigma's barriers don't have any duration; their duration can be any amount. Putting a dash implies that they don't have a duration which simply isn't true.

3) Why even combine ultimate cost with cooldown? They're two COMPLETELY different concepts that don't belong together at all. It just causes unnecessary confusion, and the ultimate cost is already mentioned in the description. Also, the color code looks terrible.

4) As I mentioned earlier, it looks more professional to leave units as they are in a table as simple as this. You don't need to abbreviate seconds for better readability because it's already super readable; it's not "kilometers per second" or lengthy units like that.

5) Frankly I'm not sure if the "objects" page should even exist. It's not an official term -- I'm not even sure if Blizzard even labels stuff as "objects" -- and I struggle to find the usefulness of that page. I was planning to discuss that with you later but I suppose now would do. That's why I changed it back to structures after changing it previously.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

There was too much to write in the edit summaries.

1) I have no idea why you changed HP (with the link to the page) to Health (with no link).

2) It's not that Reinhardt's, Brigitte's, and Sigma's barriers don't have any duration; their duration can be any amount. Putting a dash implies that they don't have a duration which simply isn't true.

3) Why even combine ultimate cost with cooldown? They're two COMPLETELY different concepts that don't belong together at all. It just causes unnecessary confusion, and the ultimate cost is already mentioned in the description. Also, the color code looks terrible.

4) As I mentioned earlier, it looks more professional to leave units as they are in a table as simple as this. You don't need to abbreviate seconds for better readability because it's already super readable; it's not "kilometers per second" or lengthy units like that.

5) Frankly I'm not sure if the "objects" page should even exist. It's not an official term -- I'm not even sure if Blizzard even labels stuff as "objects" -- and I struggle to find the usefulness of that page. I was planning to discuss that with you later but I suppose now would do. That's why I changed it back to structures after changing it previously.

Avatar for Guildess

Hey thanks for reverting the dumb stuff i did, i wasn't aware the icons were from the official site but i probably should've looked better for them. However about Baptiste's Amp Matrix, i think it should be listed on the Hit points list since it can be destroyed, even if only by Sombra's EMP, for all we know it does have shields in the game's code but can't be targeted by anything else.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

the wiki already states that amp matrix can be destroyed by EMP on both baptiste's page and sombra's page. u don't need to put that on a list of HP when it does have any tangible HP to list.

Avatar for SmerfedMuffin

Want me to re-add that revision but with recalled in place of moved? Saw it was reverted and that comment was attached.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

I don't think that's necessary. One of Experimental Barrier's gimmicks is that it can be recalled at any time. Also I'd rather have as little bullet points as possible.

Avatar for ArguedOyster57

Thank you very much and thanks for responding so fast.

Also, the original value of 5.5 m/s was added July 17, 2016 by Krupam and wasn't modified until you changed it April this year. Do you have any idea how Krupam came up with this original number?

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Nope. A lot of values are weird and some are completely made-up. I've changed a lot on a lot of pages. Anyway, it's correct now so it doesn't matter.

Avatar for ArguedOyster57

Excuse me, I was wondering where you got the "4.11 m/s" number for Pharah's Hover Jets from.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Go to workshop. [Event: Ongoing - Each Player. Condition: True == True. Action: Create HUD Text; Header: Speed Of.] Now you can find the speed of any hero in the game.

Avatar for TenTonParasol

re: Sojourn, like, yeah, it happened in the past from the perspective of the Recall, but I initially drafted the article using literary present. I don't know why everything isn't written from literary present, because the events in Cuba are present tense as we play through Storm Rising, just as the events of King's Row Uprising are present tense during the Uprising event, and etc. And, well, it's how writing about fiction is supposed to be done: literary present because it's always "happening now" whenever one comes to that point in the story.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

That's admirable but consistency in style is more important, don't you think?

Avatar for TenTonParasol

I mean, yes, and I don't contest your edit on that point, I didn't realize at the time we don't write in literary present. But it's my thought that ALL articles switch to a literary present.

Though, actually, it'd be better to propose it to the community at large to see if there's a consensus for it than just you. I'm just at a loss at how to do that, thinking of it.

Avatar for Mr Pie 5

Hi, I'm the manager of Overwatch Wiki. I found your comments and made some changes to the front page. I added the missing Paris, and I replaced the patch notes with your idea for latest map, because there didn't seem to be interest in keeping the patch notes updated. For that same reason I also removed the current events section.

I don't really keep up with Overwatch, but if you want to discuss the wiki feel free to contact me.

Avatar for Guildess

Wow, thanks for deleting half of what i did

Avatar for Guildess

i'm done. you're pretty much the only one doing anything in this site anyway so i'll just leave you alone

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Man. You're over-exaggerating of what I did, and I question if you even went through them. Furthermore, for someone who completely undid MY edits a while back, I don't think you have the right to complain like this. As far as I could tell, literally the only thing I "undid" (I prefer "modify") was you splitting the Hero column in two to fit a sub-column for D.Va and her mech. As for the other chart, it needed simplification anyway.

Avatar for Guildess

Hey, you think it'd be good to standardize "temporary shields" and "temporary armor"? "temporary personal shields" and "non-recoverable shields/armor" are kind of long and many places have a different wording

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

I'm a bit iffy on that. NOW the term "temporary armor" is accurate, but before the Rally changes, the term was inaccurate because Rally armor was permanent (and Torb's Armor Packs before that). I searched for the origin of the term and couldn't find it, so I assumed it was another community-made term that got popular. I just left it alone because Blizzard officially used "temporary...shields" several times and it was way, way easier to explain the concept of non-recoverable HP using like terms. The term Blizzard used "non-recoverable armor" is accurate to Rally armor even before it became temporary, so if Blizzard ever decides to release a hero that provides permanent armor again (which I highly doubt but it isn't impossible), "temporary armor" would become problematic again.

Avatar for Guildess

"temporary" is and almost always been more about the fact that they can't be healed and go away when depleted, the word itself doesn't mean it HAS to have a time restriction, but even without that, it's still better to have a single defined and simple term that may be changed in the future than having multiple that change from place to place, non-recoverable may be slightly more intuitive but it's still a mouth-full and temporary still conveys you wont have it for long, "Barriers" only became a thing really because at the time there where both temporary shields from Symmetra and temporary "shields" from Lucio/Doomfist, but after that changed we have since the term temporary shields for them and no issue has been had, just because blizzard isn't the best at having a public single fixed term for certain things doesn't mean there shouldn't be one

Avatar for Guildess

for the time being i'm adding "temporary" to places where it isn't referring to normal armor/shields

Avatar for Eldnny

Hey, saw you edited Zaryas page last, noticed that under the "Energy" abilities section it says "Energy decays at a rate of 1.6% per second." however at the "Strategy" section its listed as "Energy will slowly decay over time at 1.4% every second." Do you know which one is actually correct ?

Avatar for IgorYannick

You should see the date of a discussion to reply. The "Barriers" discussion on Hit points page has like a year old, when there was not any official term like personal shield, just a word at Doomfist skill. There was not any kind of name to make the distinction between shield given by shield generator and the now called personal shield. Both was the same, so a new term was needed. That was Barrier or personal barrier, and the wiki had that term until the release of Wrecking Ball, when Blizzard made that distinction and give them a proper name. Thats all. Don't ress old topics and think twice before writing something.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

This is just ignorant. Temporary personal shields has always existed in the game; this wiki in particular just chose to ignore it. Here's a screencap of Lucio's official page from 2016 https://web.archive.org/web/20160806020652/https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/heroes/lucio/ and a screencap of Doomfist's page from 2017 https://web.archive.org/web/20170706180223/https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/heroes/doomfist. I honestly have no idea where you got the notion that Blizzard changed terminology with Wrecking Ball's release. Also FYI, the only reason why I posted in that old topic in the first place is because I was actually met with resistance when I changed the term, and user Guildes directed me there. He later appologized and admited he was wrong.

Avatar for IgorYannick

"This is just ignorant." - This is just Toxic. "Temporary personal shields has always existed in the game;" - Nobody doubted it. "this wiki in particular just chose to ignore it." - Thats what i wrote. "Here's a screencap of (...)" - Yes, and the term "temporary shield" does not appear anywhere. (Same at DF) "I honestly have no idea where you got the notion that Blizzard changed terminology with Wrecking Ball's release." - Well, on WB the term "TEMPORARY shield" appears for first time. For the rest... just don't ress old topics. For more discussion check the topic again. Don't make me write twice, I'm going to explain deeper on the Hit points discussion page.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

You literally said in your first post that there was no official term. Wrecking Ball says "temporary personal shields" exactly like Doomfist. The term "temporary shields" come from Lucio's in-game description, which I even cited as a reference. And you're telling me if someone's asking me to post on an relevant topic, I shouldn't?

Avatar for Biiackjack

How come you keep undoing my Sombra edit? Labeling it your way makes it so it's inconsistent with the way the Area of Effect is formatted (With it saying the range and then having the comparison to Hack hidden under it) and you also have to scroll back up to Hack to find out the duration, which is just tedious. Why not give the actual information under the ability? It's like if you were looking in a cookbook for a recipe for brownies and it said "Requires the same amount of eggs as Spice Cake." I don't wanna have to go find Spice Cake; I just want my brownies!

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Because hacked durations are different for different things. Also EMP itself lasts for 8 seconds (yes 8 -- not 6), or at least that's the amount of time it prevents you from gaining ultimate charge, so if anything, 8 seconds should be there. Hack is linked so you can just click it, and even if you don't, all the durations are listed down below in the ability details.

Avatar for Biiackjack

Okay, I get your reasoning on the Hack durations. That makes sense. I didn't really it was linked, so that's my bad. EMP definitely lasts 6 seconds though. And it only takes 6 for you to gain Ultimate charge after using EMP. Source is my 51 hours on Sombra, and I went back and double-checked in the practice range. If you time EMP right after a hack, the little red swirls (the indicator for Hack that Blizz really needs to update to Sugar Skulls) disappear at a little past the 2 second mark (EMP has a 0.5 second cast time so it's not exactly 2), and you can start gaining ult charge right then too (I started shooting from afar before the 2 second mark and it started counting at the same time as the swirls disappearing). Thanks for clarifying the Hack thing, though -- I was thinking you just wanted to undo all my edits for the fun of it! Haha

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

Why would you EMP after a hack? EMP resets the hack timer. Anyway, go to custom games, set ultimate gain and ultimate passive to 500% and spawn with EMP ready, then time how long it takes for Sombra to gain ultimate charge after pressing Q. I just did it now and I got ~7.8 seconds.

Avatar for Biiackjack

I EMPed after the hack BECAUSE the EMP resets resets the hack timer. EMPing exactly when the hack finishes makes it so you can use the cooldown timer as a timer for when you can get ult charge again. Anyways, I just tried it in the practice range. I timed it on my phone this time. I pressed Q, waited about a quarter or a half of a second (To account for the cast time), then started the timer. I shot at the bots from far away and paused the timer when the ult meter started giving me charge. I got 6.35 seconds. Accounting for human error, it's most likely 6 seconds, maybe 6.5. When you did your test, did you press Q, then just wait? Or did you shoot at enemies? If you weren't shooting, then that's why your time was so much longer than mine. You would've been waiting for the passive generation of ult charge, but that doesn't reflect how early you CAN gain ultimate charge. That only factors in the passive generation, missing out on the combat generation.

Avatar for Lightning Laxus

In that case I'll just subtract 1.

Avatar for Guildess

Hey, i'm sorry i was harsh with you, i was having a bad week and it was wrong of me to dump it on you, you did a great job on the Hit Points page, and the Barriers change is not a problem in any way, well done trying to do the right thing even with someone telling you shouldn't, keep up the good work.

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