1
Hi
I saw my Genji edit reverted because it was "Kind of obsolete." May I know why it is that you believe so? I thought of working on having native languages for the character quotes pages.
- Ah, my mistake, I thought that was on base Genji page, not on the quotes. We lately decided that those things should be exclusive to quotes pages, because people kept spamming those on heroes' trivia.
- STILL, when I started making quotation pages, I decided not to post original script and only post official romanizations of the quotes. That's how I did it with Zarya's Russian, D.Va's Korean, Mei's Chinese and Shimadas' Japanese. I think the romanized version covers enough, and the native script is just unnecessary and adding that would make the page more crowded. If I were to decide otherwise, I'd have to add native spellings for all the languages mentioned before. Maybe someday.
- Another thing is, for an average reader, it's much safer to assume that they know how to read romanized rather than native. Especially in case of language like Japanese, where native script barely makes sense, while romanized is just direct calque from pronunciation. It's also a tad easier to verify. There were cases where people couldn't decide over what the native text actually is.
- Or I just don't like bushes. I don't know.
- I see, thanks for your fair response. It is indeed much more accessible to read romanized text. I was initially looking for the native scripts as I found them to be very characteristic.
2
//Hi, saw my vid reverted - for clarification, what is the video policy here? I saw other guide videos (more hero guides like this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDmqsSKZYXo) on pages, so I figured lore and quotes would be too?
- If that was there, then it must've slipped our attention. Gone now.
- Basically, we decided that no fan content should be there unless it's approved by Curse. Personally I feel like it's a necessity to keep it that way, because otherwise everyone will feel free to post his stuff there, which would lead to an unsorted mess. It's safer to just ban fan-made content entirely.
- While I don't have anything against you - hell, I'm a big fan! Your vids helped me quite a bit with quotation pages, too. But I hope you understand that I'd rather hold to our policy as it is. If we were to add your vids there, we'd all have to agree on that, so it's not just up to me.
- That's no problem! I don't want to be spamming, don't worry! I appreciate the clarification, completely get it and won't in future, fully understand you don't want a self promotional spam fest :) I have a bunch of voice lines and screenshots - is there a way to send these to someone in bulk as a contribution, by the way? Figure it would help some of your pages! Just LMK, and anything can help with, please don't hesitate to shout :)
- Well, I'd like to update all the current pictures in the cosmetics, and being unable to run the game, I kinda have to rely on someone else taking the screenshots. But that's quite a big undertaking, about 360 damn screenshots, which would take a while, so yeah, only if you feel like you'd be up for that, I'll give you the details.
- Also, it seems that you have the sound files from the game. Is there any sites I can get those? I would want to add more files to the quotations pages, since all the ones that I have are from here and that one is missing quite a lot of files, not to mention having only the old Mercy voice...
3
//My bastion change was reverted, While i agree that reaper has a good chance there, the same could be said for any hero who could sneak up behind the bastion. Even with a teleport it's not as easy as that counter text makes it seem.
- Alright, I changed that back, although I must say, a lot of this is kind of difficult to really verify. A good example is how McCree technically counters Reaper with his combo, but if Reaper manages to soak FB with Wraith Form, then he has the upper hand. And then there's to consider Bastion's playstyle; if it camps one spot for the whole game, then pretty much all heroes can easily deal with it, but if it actually switches to Recon really often, everything changes.
4
Hello. Why did you revert the D.va edit I made? Not only did you remove the original script, you also removed the original contributions I added--better translations and the Starcraft quote. Below you noted that you thought you didn't want to post original scripts and only post romanizations. Of your reasons given, the second one makes no sense--"I were to decide otherwise, I'd have to add native spellings for all the languages mentioned before. Maybe someday." By deleting and discouraging native scripts you actually make it harder and harder to introduce them. I also feel that you are thinking too much about your own ability when you note that "it's easier to verify" if it's only transliterations. I feel that it is better to have all three versions, native script, translation and transliteration. Actually, I don't think a transliteration is needed. The actual sound file is all the transliteration you need. A lot of people (or at least, me and others who post on reddit about what Widowmaker says in French) I don't want to unapologetically use weasel words) are interested in what it looks like in the original script. Besides, romanizations lose a lot of nuance. If you write, for example, a Mei quote in Pinyin with no tones (essentially, a transliteration) the typical Chinese speaker might sorta guess what it means but not quite get it without thinking hard. Similarly, a romanization of Korean is pretty bad to read as a Korean, since English is just not suited to transliteration Korean. So on, so forth.
TLDR: - I disagree with your stance of "remove all native scripts" because
1. If you really want to introduce it later, this simply increases the barrier to entry 2. Transliterations are subpar quality to the actual readers of the language 3. If the reader wants to know how it sounds they can just listen to the sound file 4. Some people want the actual script version. (side note: I've always thought enemy Mercy's ult sound was Head established not heiden sta-something) 5. Just because you personally cannot verify a native script is not grounds for removing it. It seems that you have essentially singlehandedly created this wiki, of course, but as long as it a wiki I feel that you ought to be amenable to other people having other experience. 6. If it looks messy to have three versions, simply remove the transliteration and let the user decide by listening to the sound file, handily provided.
(Related to points 3,4 and 5: I believe that one of the beautiful parts of crowd-sourced wikis is the ability to combine expertise from many people. It seems that you don't have much experience with regards to Korean. It seems I do. Why not combine this experience into one better article, rather than cut it out because it is hard to personally verify?)
Another question is:
... why did you remove the new D.va quote that I added, the one about starcraft?
Final question is:
Why did you remove my different translations?
If I have not recieved an answer in 24 hours I will proceed to revert your romanization<->korean reverts. I hope that's not too bold of me. Also, I will re-add the new D.va quote right now, albeit with a transliteration as you prefer rather than original script.
(PS: Another alternative is to have an abbreviation tag or other fold-out tag that contains the native script to make it seem less cluttered. not sure if wikipedia supports that though.)
Thanks, --Skairunner (talk) 04:40, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
- As for the Starcraft quote, it was kind of just put there in the middle, I wasn't quite sure how to place it in the whole article. Same reason why on Reinhardt's and Tracer's pages it's only hidden, not deleted. Aren't those just datamined, or they are actually present in the game?
- Yeah, I understand your frustration. Guess I might be too possessive about Quotation pages and stuck to the idea of them staying in the same shape as I originally envisioned them. As with the romanized text, well, it's an English-language wiki, and it's very easy to assume that an average reader is more familiar with Latin spelling rather than the original one, which is why I believe that romanization should stay as the "primary" version of the quote.
- I like the idea of a fold-out tag, though, I'll see what can be done about it. I'll see what can be done about it, in the meantime, you can put the bushy text in hidden on on the talk page, and I'll add those things when I figure out how to.
Alright, adding native text in hidden seems fair enough for now. Yeah, the quote is AFAIK datamined. Well, technically every sound clip is datamined, but I personally haven't heard that quote while playing the game so far.
I'm slowly adding sound clips for the quotes without them, and I am not quite sure where a lot of the quotes are from so I tend to just add them under Unknown. I suppose I could just skip really short ones (like Reinhardt's "Ah."), not sure what to do about the longer ones (eg, Genji says "My name is ... robot ninja cyborg dude.") that I am not sure where they appear. Voice clips that exist but aren't in-game are probably still of interest to the average reader here though, so I think adding them under Unknown and hoping a later contributer fixes it seems good for me. I'll do that for now.
Skairunner (talk) 11:23, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
- I added the native script you've provided earlier back on D.Va's quotation page. I know the solution isn't perfect - ideally I'd have it in a form like the "Explanation" tags here - but that's apparently impossible with wiki formatting. Not on this one anyway. Well, at least it all still fits in one line, and is more compact now that I squeezed the translation into that, too. Did it also so that the text in parentheses is exclusive to notes such as the "self and hostile" bits.
Torbjorn
Thanks for the response and repair (Toblerone)
Subjective Counters List
Hey, I saw you comment on the counters to Zenyatta list being subjective, I do agree but it is also quite difficult to make objective. Would you like to discuss it so we can form a better list? Two minds are better than one after all.
--M0DXx (talk)
- Yeah, well, you might probably be aware by now, that I don't Read: can't actually play the game, so any knowledge I have is whatever I can verify from others. That's also the case with counters, I also base some of my knowledge on Sty's videos #1 #2 #3.
- Anyway, ideally, I'd want to list all heroes that counter and that are countered by the hero, and some general ideas about both, kinda like I tried to do on Genji's page. Another good idea could probably be adding a list of heroes that synergize well with each other like Pharcy, maybe exclusively for Supports, who usually aren't direct counters to anything
- Still, there's multiple issues about doing something like that, that I collectively just called "subjective":
- Technically anyone can kill anyone. Especially true for heroes like Widow, S76 or McCree.
- Players' skill: Especially true when countering with Widowmaker or Genji.
- Or knowledge. A stationary Bastion can wipe anyone who runs in front of him.
- Soft and hard counters: Widow and S76 practically remove Pharah from the game, but McCree, Roadhog or Bastion can also deal with her when they're not outranged. If anything, things like that should at least be separated.
- Ability reliance: Countering with McCree or Roadhog strictly depends on landing a successful Flashbang/Hook. Heard that's a rule of thumb against for example Reaper; if he avoids it, they're dead, if he doesn't, he's dead.
- Playstyle: Stationary Bastion can be ravaged by almost everyone, Bastion that switches to Recon a lot is a slightly different game.
- Indirect counters: Technically Reinhardt has no way of killing Widowmaker, but he can make it much easier for his team to deal with her by absorbing her shots. Like soft counters, should at least be separated.
- Ultimates: S76's against mobile flankers. Even non-hitscan heroes can easily kill Pharah while she's ulting.
- Counter countering: Widow is at a disadvantage, but can still defend herself or escape from flankers probably falls under soft counters then. Reinhardt can manage to defend himself from Reaper by charging, but otherwise he's dead.
- Patches: I'm still not quite sure where McCree lies exactly after his nerf.
- Some things people might just agree or disagree about due to different experiences.
- So basically that. I feel like those issues should be addressed first, else we'll end up with situations where half of the cast counters a hero, even though most of those are situational.
- Yeah, I guess I typed my ass off on this one. I should go to sleep.
- I agree with pretty much all of this, and I think the "counters" sections all need to be reworked. While I do not agree with everything you do (such is the subjectivity of this wiki), you're clearly **prominent on this wiki and I feel like any major changes should be taken through you first. I'd like some way to contact you so that I could get a quick response if needed (steam works if you're active) if you don't mind. Or you could just simply let me proceed as I wish.
Perhaps rather than a "Counters" section an "Interactions" section should be in place instead, where we simply list all/most heroes and state how they interact with the hero on the page, friend or foe (and maybe a very brief summary at the beginning). That is only an idea though, I've severely rewrote a fair few paragraphs on this wiki, and mostly dumped them and rewrote them on this wiki, I could do the same for the counters sections, but that doesn't sound like the best way to go about it.
- I'd like to hear your thoughts on how exactly this should be carried out, and any ideas you may have.
- But until then, I also need to sleep.